We welcome the start of a new season in this episode with a look at unlocking home equity. Shannon Robnett and Matthew Sullivan of the Hooked On Startups podcast talk shop and discuss how you can go bout unlocking your home’s trapped value. Listen in as they discuss different ways of using equity and why homeowners today are rich in equity but poor in cash and how to remedy the imbalance. We also hear about Matthew’s current project: using blockchain to fractionalize investments in home equity and how these benefits both homeowner and investor. Tune in for more great real estate investing information from Shannon and Matthew.
Watch the episode here:
Listen to the podcast here:
Matthew Sullivan: Unlocking Home Equity
In this episode, I'm joined by Matthew Sullivan. I had the pleasure of being a guest on Matthew's podcast called Hooked on Startups. I convinced him to come over here and join us in the show because we're going to talk about a new debt-free way of unlocking your home's equity and ways to invest in homes that are under or occupied and not for sale. In this episode, we're going to discuss unlocking equity. We're going to talk about how investors can get access to an untapped $13 trillion real estate asset class and the difference between a home equity contract and a mortgage. You're going to want to read on as Matthew and I dive into this incredibly mind-boggling conversation that we're going to have. I've already spoken with Matthew. I know how this is going to work. Matthew, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.
Shannon, thank you for having me. What a great entrée. I have no idea how I'm going to follow any of that but I'll do my best.
First of all, let's talk about how Matthew came into the business world to where you are now. Give us a little bit of background on where your expertise lies and what got you to where you're at.
My background has been very much entrepreneurial, which is another way of saying that I can’t hold down a job. I started off my career in insurance then very quickly moved to stockbroking or trading and that was back in the late ’80s. I got involved in finance at a very early age and moved into corporate finance at a small London-based boutique corporate finance operation. In the late ’90s, we ended up working very closely with Sir Richard Branson. We started off working with him on the Virgin Global Challenger, which is the round the world balloon expedition to try and circumnavigate the world. That was our balloon company.
My boss, Roy McCarthy was the co-pilot. I had a fantastic view of Sir Richard’s and all of the companies that he worked with. In the late ’90s, I then embarked on my own career, a self-employed, entrepreneurial career. I started off in telecommunications. I’m not sure if you remember when AT&T was the only telecoms company then it spun off and you had these local exchange providers and telecommunications became unbundled and competition came. I started embarking on a number of businesses in that area. It was absolutely fascinating because it combined the things I love, which were technology and the ability to build platforms where you could build something once and use it time and time again.
I then got involved with a startup and the internet in the late ’90s, early 2000s, which was VC-funded. Since then, I have been involved in a number of companies in a number of countries, Australia, India, UK and then I moved to the US many years ago. I wanted to find something that could combine all of those experiences. I love technology. I understand it. I’m a terrible programmer but I used to love doing it. I always wanted to get involved in real estate because it’s something that fascinated me.
When I moved over here, I began to realize what a huge multi-layered industry it was. I moved here at the same time that the JOBS Act had been passed under Barack Obama. We have the ability to offer or raise capital through an online platform. It checked the boxes like something online, capital financing check and real estate. I started off by building one of the very early real estate crowdfunding platforms, which didn’t go anywhere, between you and me. At that point, I stumbled across this intriguing asset loss, which is home equity which fascinated me for a good few years until I was able to consolidate my thoughts and create something that allowed us to bring a solution to home equity to the market.
One of the things that you're talking about when you're talking about home equity, you're talking about something that in the last couple of years, we here in the United States has more of than ever in history but that hasn't always been the case. In '09, 2010, we had no equity. We had negative equity and now we have positive equity. What does that mean when we talk about being cash poor but you've got all this equity and how does that leave the average American disadvantaged?
It’s a strange phenomenon. We’ve seen significant house price appreciation in a number of areas across the US. What that means is if you’re a homeowner, you have probably seen the value of your home increase significantly. At the same time because of the economic pressures that have been caused by the pandemic and the implications of that, you’re probably finding it harder to make money then than you did or you’re finding that your economic situation may well have got worse. You’ve got these two strange repelling forces.
On the one hand, on paper, you’re worth a few hundred thousand dollars but you can’t afford the grocery bill this month. We described that as being house rich and cash poor. What home equity is, it’s an asset. It is the value that is trapped in a single concentrated asset that you can’t trade, that you can’t do anything with. It doesn’t generate cashflow. It’s the value of your home. Now you can access that when you sell your home but you don’t want to sell your home because you quite like living in it. There’s a strange sort of tension.
The only way that you can access how you make equity nowadays, other than the agreements that we work with, is by borrowing money. You go to the bank, you borrow money and you use your home equity or your house as security. That means the bank says, “Great. We’ll lend you some money. We’ll use your house as security so if you miss any payments, we’ll come along and take your house. We’ll sell it for pennies on the dollar. We’ll get repaid and if there’s anything left leftover, it’s yours.” That’s the problem that we are looking at where even though millions of Americans now have more than 50% ownership of their home, they can’t do anything with it.
The reality is if they're looking to cash out of that, they get the cash but then their payment goes up. Now, they couldn't afford the groceries anyway but now, they've got some cash out so they can catch up on some of the bills, pay down the credit cards, do some other things, maybe help the situation out but now they've got another bill to go with that.
Precisely and that's the problem. What you're doing is you’re kicking the can down the road as it were.
I’d rather pay Paul and Peter doesn't like that when you do that to it.
Shannon, thank you for having me. What a great entrée. I have no idea how I'm going to follow any of that but I'll do my best.
First of all, let's talk about how Matthew came into the business world to where you are now. Give us a little bit of background on where your expertise lies and what got you to where you're at.
My background has been very much entrepreneurial, which is another way of saying that I can’t hold down a job. I started off my career in insurance then very quickly moved to stockbroking or trading and that was back in the late ’80s. I got involved in finance at a very early age and moved into corporate finance at a small London-based boutique corporate finance operation. In the late ’90s, we ended up working very closely with Sir Richard Branson. We started off working with him on the Virgin Global Challenger, which is the round the world balloon expedition to try and circumnavigate the world. That was our balloon company.
My boss, Roy McCarthy was the co-pilot. I had a fantastic view of Sir Richard’s and all of the companies that he worked with. In the late ’90s, I then embarked on my own career, a self-employed, entrepreneurial career. I started off in telecommunications. I’m not sure if you remember when AT&T was the only telecoms company then it spun off and you had these local exchange providers and telecommunications became unbundled and competition came. I started embarking on a number of businesses in that area. It was absolutely fascinating because it combined the things I love, which were technology and the ability to build platforms where you could build something once and use it time and time again.
I then got involved with a startup and the internet in the late ’90s, early 2000s, which was VC-funded. Since then, I have been involved in a number of companies in a number of countries, Australia, India, UK and then I moved to the US many years ago. I wanted to find something that could combine all of those experiences. I love technology. I understand it. I’m a terrible programmer but I used to love doing it. I always wanted to get involved in real estate because it’s something that fascinated me.
When I moved over here, I began to realize what a huge multi-layered industry it was. I moved here at the same time that the JOBS Act had been passed under Barack Obama. We have the ability to offer or raise capital through an online platform. It checked the boxes like something online, capital financing check and real estate. I started off by building one of the very early real estate crowdfunding platforms, which didn’t go anywhere, between you and me. At that point, I stumbled across this intriguing asset loss, which is home equity which fascinated me for a good few years until I was able to consolidate my thoughts and create something that allowed us to bring a solution to home equity to the market.
One of the things that you're talking about when you're talking about home equity, you're talking about something that in the last couple of years, we here in the United States has more of than ever in history but that hasn't always been the case. In '09, 2010, we had no equity. We had negative equity and now we have positive equity. What does that mean when we talk about being cash poor but you've got all this equity and how does that leave the average American disadvantaged?
It’s a strange phenomenon. We’ve seen significant house price appreciation in a number of areas across the US. What that means is if you’re a homeowner, you have probably seen the value of your home increase significantly. At the same time because of the economic pressures that have been caused by the pandemic and the implications of that, you’re probably finding it harder to make money then than you did or you’re finding that your economic situation may well have got worse. You’ve got these two strange repelling forces.
On the one hand, on paper, you’re worth a few hundred thousand dollars but you can’t afford the grocery bill this month. We described that as being house rich and cash poor. What home equity is, it’s an asset. It is the value that is trapped in a single concentrated asset that you can’t trade, that you can’t do anything with. It doesn’t generate cashflow. It’s the value of your home. Now you can access that when you sell your home but you don’t want to sell your home because you quite like living in it. There’s a strange sort of tension.
The only way that you can access how you make equity nowadays, other than the agreements that we work with, is by borrowing money. You go to the bank, you borrow money and you use your home equity or your house as security. That means the bank says, “Great. We’ll lend you some money. We’ll use your house as security so if you miss any payments, we’ll come along and take your house. We’ll sell it for pennies on the dollar. We’ll get repaid and if there’s anything left leftover, it’s yours.” That’s the problem that we are looking at where even though millions of Americans now have more than 50% ownership of their home, they can’t do anything with it.
The reality is if they're looking to cash out of that, they get the cash but then their payment goes up. Now, they couldn't afford the groceries anyway but now, they've got some cash out so they can catch up on some of the bills, pay down the credit cards, do some other things, maybe help the situation out but now they've got another bill to go with that.
Precisely and that's the problem. What you're doing is you’re kicking the can down the road as it were.
I’d rather pay Paul and Peter doesn't like that when you do that to it.
In this episode, I'm joined by Matthew Sullivan. I had the pleasure of being a guest on Matthew's podcast called Hooked on Startups. I convinced him to come over here and join us in the show because we're going to talk about a new debt-free way of unlocking your home's equity and ways to invest in homes that are under or occupied and not for sale. In this episode, we're going to discuss unlocking equity. We're going to talk about how investors can get access to an untapped $13 trillion real estate asset class and the difference between a home equity contract and a mortgage. You're going to want to read on as Matthew and I dive into this incredibly mind-boggling conversation that we're going to have. I've already spoken with Matthew. I know how this is going to work. Matthew, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.
Shannon, thank you for having me. What a great entrée. I have no idea how I'm going to follow any of that but I'll do my best.
First of all, let's talk about how Matthew came into the business world to where you are now. Give us a little bit of background on where your expertise lies and what got you to where you're at.
My background has been very much entrepreneurial, which is another way of saying that I can’t hold down a job. I started off my career in insurance then very quickly moved to stockbroking or trading and that was back in the late ’80s. I got involved in finance at a very early age and moved into corporate finance at a small London-based boutique corporate finance operation. In the late ’90s, we ended up working very closely with Sir Richard Branson. We started off working with him on the Virgin Global Challenger, which is the round the world balloon expedition to try and circumnavigate the world. That was our balloon company.
My boss, Roy McCarthy was the co-pilot. I had a fantastic view of Sir Richard’s and all of the companies that he worked with. In the late ’90s, I then embarked on my own career, a self-employed, entrepreneurial career. I started off in telecommunications. I’m not sure if you remember when AT&T was the only telecoms company then it spun off and you had these local exchange providers and telecommunications became unbundled and competition came. I started embarking on a number of businesses in that area. It was absolutely fascinating because it combined the things I love, which were technology and the ability to build platforms where you could build something once and use it time and time again.
I then got involved with a startup and the internet in the late ’90s, early 2000s, which was VC-funded. Since then, I have been involved in a number of companies in a number of countries, Australia, India, UK and then I moved to the US many years ago. I wanted to find something that could combine all of those experiences. I love technology. I understand it. I’m a terrible programmer but I used to love doing it. I always wanted to get involved in real estate because it’s something that fascinated me.
When I moved over here, I began to realize what a huge multi-layered industry it was. I moved here at the same time that the JOBS Act had been passed under Barack Obama. We have the ability to offer or raise capital through an online platform. It checked the boxes like something online, capital financing check and real estate. I started off by building one of the very early real estate crowdfunding platforms, which didn’t go anywhere, between you and me. At that point, I stumbled across this intriguing asset loss, which is home equity which fascinated me for a good few years until I was able to consolidate my thoughts and create something that allowed us to bring a solution to home equity to the market.
One of the things that you're talking about when you're talking about home equity, you're talking about something that in the last couple of years, we here in the United States has more of than ever in history but that hasn't always been the case. In '09, 2010, we had no equity. We had negative equity and now we have positive equity. What does that mean when we talk about being cash poor but you've got all this equity and how does that leave the average American disadvantaged?
It’s a strange phenomenon. We’ve seen significant house price appreciation in a number of areas across the US. What that means is if you’re a homeowner, you have probably seen the value of your home increase significantly. At the same time because of the economic pressures that have been caused by the pandemic and the implications of that, you’re probably finding it harder to make money then than you did or you’re finding that your economic situation may well have got worse. You’ve got these two strange repelling forces.
On the one hand, on paper, you’re worth a few hundred thousand dollars but you can’t afford the grocery bill this month. We described that as being house rich and cash poor. What home equity is, it’s an asset. It is the value that is trapped in a single concentrated asset that you can’t trade, that you can’t do anything with. It doesn’t generate cashflow. It’s the value of your home. Now you can access that when you sell your home but you don’t want to sell your home because you quite like living in it. There’s a strange sort of tension.
The only way that you can access how you make equity nowadays, other than the agreements that we work with, is by borrowing money. You go to the bank, you borrow money and you use your home equity or your house as security. That means the bank says, “Great. We’ll lend you some money. We’ll use your house as security so if you miss any payments, we’ll come along and take your house. We’ll sell it for pennies on the dollar. We’ll get repaid and if there’s anything left leftover, it’s yours.” That’s the problem that we are looking at where even though millions of Americans now have more than 50% ownership of their home, they can’t do anything with it.
The reality is if they're looking to cash out of that, they get the cash but then their payment goes up. Now, they couldn't afford the groceries anyway but now, they've got some cash out so they can catch up on some of the bills, pay down the credit cards, do some other things, maybe help the situation out but now they've got another bill to go with that.
Precisely and that's the problem. What you're doing is you’re kicking the can down the road as it were.
I’d rather pay Paul and Peter doesn't like that when you do that to it.
Shannon, thank you for having me. What a great entrée. I have no idea how I'm going to follow any of that but I'll do my best.
First of all, let's talk about how Matthew came into the business world to where you are now. Give us a little bit of background on where your expertise lies and what got you to where you're at.
My background has been very much entrepreneurial, which is another way of saying that I can’t hold down a job. I started off my career in insurance then very quickly moved to stockbroking or trading and that was back in the late ’80s. I got involved in finance at a very early age and moved into corporate finance at a small London-based boutique corporate finance operation. In the late ’90s, we ended up working very closely with Sir Richard Branson. We started off working with him on the Virgin Global Challenger, which is the round the world balloon expedition to try and circumnavigate the world. That was our balloon company.
My boss, Roy McCarthy was the co-pilot. I had a fantastic view of Sir Richard’s and all of the companies that he worked with. In the late ’90s, I then embarked on my own career, a self-employed, entrepreneurial career. I started off in telecommunications. I’m not sure if you remember when AT&T was the only telecoms company then it spun off and you had these local exchange providers and telecommunications became unbundled and competition came. I started embarking on a number of businesses in that area. It was absolutely fascinating because it combined the things I love, which were technology and the ability to build platforms where you could build something once and use it time and time again.
I then got involved with a startup and the internet in the late ’90s, early 2000s, which was VC-funded. Since then, I have been involved in a number of companies in a number of countries, Australia, India, UK and then I moved to the US many years ago. I wanted to find something that could combine all of those experiences. I love technology. I understand it. I’m a terrible programmer but I used to love doing it. I always wanted to get involved in real estate because it’s something that fascinated me.
When I moved over here, I began to realize what a huge multi-layered industry it was. I moved here at the same time that the JOBS Act had been passed under Barack Obama. We have the ability to offer or raise capital through an online platform. It checked the boxes like something online, capital financing check and real estate. I started off by building one of the very early real estate crowdfunding platforms, which didn’t go anywhere, between you and me. At that point, I stumbled across this intriguing asset loss, which is home equity which fascinated me for a good few years until I was able to consolidate my thoughts and create something that allowed us to bring a solution to home equity to the market.
One of the things that you're talking about when you're talking about home equity, you're talking about something that in the last couple of years, we here in the United States has more of than ever in history but that hasn't always been the case. In '09, 2010, we had no equity. We had negative equity and now we have positive equity. What does that mean when we talk about being cash poor but you've got all this equity and how does that leave the average American disadvantaged?
It’s a strange phenomenon. We’ve seen significant house price appreciation in a number of areas across the US. What that means is if you’re a homeowner, you have probably seen the value of your home increase significantly. At the same time because of the economic pressures that have been caused by the pandemic and the implications of that, you’re probably finding it harder to make money then than you did or you’re finding that your economic situation may well have got worse. You’ve got these two strange repelling forces.
On the one hand, on paper, you’re worth a few hundred thousand dollars but you can’t afford the grocery bill this month. We described that as being house rich and cash poor. What home equity is, it’s an asset. It is the value that is trapped in a single concentrated asset that you can’t trade, that you can’t do anything with. It doesn’t generate cashflow. It’s the value of your home. Now you can access that when you sell your home but you don’t want to sell your home because you quite like living in it. There’s a strange sort of tension.
The only way that you can access how you make equity nowadays, other than the agreements that we work with, is by borrowing money. You go to the bank, you borrow money and you use your home equity or your house as security. That means the bank says, “Great. We’ll lend you some money. We’ll use your house as security so if you miss any payments, we’ll come along and take your house. We’ll sell it for pennies on the dollar. We’ll get repaid and if there’s anything left leftover, it’s yours.” That’s the problem that we are looking at where even though millions of Americans now have more than 50% ownership of their home, they can’t do anything with it.
The reality is if they're looking to cash out of that, they get the cash but then their payment goes up. Now, they couldn't afford the groceries anyway but now, they've got some cash out so they can catch up on some of the bills, pay down the credit cards, do some other things, maybe help the situation out but now they've got another bill to go with that.
Precisely and that's the problem. What you're doing is you’re kicking the can down the road as it were.
I’d rather pay Paul and Peter doesn't like that when you do that to it.
Home equity is an asset. It is value that is trapped in a single concentrated asset that you can't trade, that you can't do anything with.
— Julie Smith
You’re right because what happens is you are making the situation worse and we all know this. This is why people don’t like the idea of tapping into their equity. They naturally assume that if I’m trying to access some of my home wealth, which is my equity, then the only way to do that is to put a further financial burden on me by having greater monthly payments. We found that there is a psychological attachment to equity. You must not touch your equity because it’s going to end in tears and the bank is going to come and take your house.
The other thing I want to mention is if you look in the commercial real estate world, there are a number of different ways for funding commercial real estate developments at the debt level and also at the equity level. At the debt level, you have different flavors of debt but also, you have investors that come in and invest in the equity in projects. Equity can be straightforward ownership. It can be equity. It can be preferred equity. It can be a combination of debt and equity where you have a mortgage that has a share of the potential appreciation.
In the commercial world, there are all sorts of financial instruments that allow the creation of this so-called capital stack that has lots of different layers comprising equity and debt funding. In residential real estate, there are none of those equity-based funding options that are available until other companies and we come along. We said, “Let’s start bringing some of those tried and tested commercial practices,” which opens up the multi-trillion-dollar marketplace.
We don't want to talk about hearsay so we won't talk about the other companies. Let's talk about your company. What is it that you guys are doing that allows me to get access to my equity, get that cash out without increasing my payment and without having to worry about losing the house if I can't make a payment that doesn't exist? I'm confused but I know that you'll bring clarity to that.
The way to answer that is to say that we are investors, not lenders. We don't lend money. We invest in the potential for your house to appreciate and we get paid by taking a share of that appreciation when you sell your home.
Are you syndicators on single-family?
I suppose to a certain extent we are but the big difference is we don't own your property. We don't have any property rights. We're not going to come and knock on your door and camp out in your spare bedroom. We don't have the obligation associated with homeownership. What we have through our agreements is the benefit which is the equity and the increase in capital value, though, which is all we want. From a homeowner, it benefits you to remain as the owner of the property without having someone else on the title because that has all complications in terms of property tax valuations and also, from a psychological perspective. It's no longer home.
It's amazing how people get tied into the psychological part of it and how much that plays into what we think and how we think and what decisions we make. By removing that and having equity partners, what is it that you're calling that? What's the mechanism that you're using to do that with?
The other thing I want to mention is if you look in the commercial real estate world, there are a number of different ways for funding commercial real estate developments at the debt level and also at the equity level. At the debt level, you have different flavors of debt but also, you have investors that come in and invest in the equity in projects. Equity can be straightforward ownership. It can be equity. It can be preferred equity. It can be a combination of debt and equity where you have a mortgage that has a share of the potential appreciation.
In the commercial world, there are all sorts of financial instruments that allow the creation of this so-called capital stack that has lots of different layers comprising equity and debt funding. In residential real estate, there are none of those equity-based funding options that are available until other companies and we come along. We said, “Let’s start bringing some of those tried and tested commercial practices,” which opens up the multi-trillion-dollar marketplace.
We don't want to talk about hearsay so we won't talk about the other companies. Let's talk about your company. What is it that you guys are doing that allows me to get access to my equity, get that cash out without increasing my payment and without having to worry about losing the house if I can't make a payment that doesn't exist? I'm confused but I know that you'll bring clarity to that.
The way to answer that is to say that we are investors, not lenders. We don't lend money. We invest in the potential for your house to appreciate and we get paid by taking a share of that appreciation when you sell your home.
Are you syndicators on single-family?
I suppose to a certain extent we are but the big difference is we don't own your property. We don't have any property rights. We're not going to come and knock on your door and camp out in your spare bedroom. We don't have the obligation associated with homeownership. What we have through our agreements is the benefit which is the equity and the increase in capital value, though, which is all we want. From a homeowner, it benefits you to remain as the owner of the property without having someone else on the title because that has all complications in terms of property tax valuations and also, from a psychological perspective. It's no longer home.
It's amazing how people get tied into the psychological part of it and how much that plays into what we think and how we think and what decisions we make. By removing that and having equity partners, what is it that you're calling that? What's the mechanism that you're using to do that with?
Unlocking Home Equity: We have the ability to offer or raise capital through online platforms. It checked the boxes like something online, check, capital financing, check, and real estate, check.
We call it a home equity agreement. This type of agreement has been around for over a decade. It’s not new. It’s an option agreement that sits outside the ownership of the property, where the homeowner has all rights as a homeowner in terms of what he does with his or her property. The agreement says, “If we invest a certain amount of capital with you, here’s our investment, here’s our lump sum. You take that. In exchange, you promise to us that when you sell your home, which can be any time in the next 10, 20 or 30 years depending on the agreement we have, you’ll give us back the original investment that we made. We will then carve up the amount that has gone up in value and we’ll take some and you’ll take some.”
What we’ll do is we’ll be very specific about what that share is when we sign the agreement. We know that if your house goes up or down, we still have that share. We’re very clear at the very beginning on how that works. It sits outside of the ownership equation. It’s protected by a lien on the title. What that means is when you sell your home, when the capital flows through escrow as a lienholder, we get paid first. That means we have a preferred equity position. We get paid before you get paid. The benefit to you is that you get a cash lump sum. There are no immediate tax implications. It’s not income. It’s not capital gains because you haven’t sold anything. You can use that money for whatever you want. It’s not debt so it doesn’t appear on your credit report as debt. You’re not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You’re selling some of your assets so that you can use that to pay down some of your debt.
The reality is then that we're fractionalizing this but how do we commemorate this? What are the instruments?
There’s the contract itself, which is an agreement. The agreement says, “In exchange for something we give you, you give something to us like a rebate.” What we’re giving you is that cash lump sum and it’s a specific amount. There are all types of underwriting that goes on behind the scenes to say, “How much are we going to give you? It’s based on what your house is worth, what your current mortgage is, to a certain extent what your credit score is,” but we only use that as a gating mechanism. Remember, you’re not taking on more debt.
There’s a lot of underwriting that goes on before we make an offer. In exchange for that lump sum, you’re going to promise us that you’re going to look after the property, that you’re not going to let it fall into disrepair. You’re going to pay your mortgage, your taxes and other things. You’ll also promise that when you sell your property, that you’ll give us back the capital together with a predetermined share. That agreement is memorialized in the contract but it is also represented by something that looks similar to a deed of trust, which is then put on the title as lien. It has language that’s very similar that says there is an agreement in place, that agreement is a performance deed of trust. In other words, the lien reflects the terms of the agreement that we have with you as the homeowner.
I think that that's a great deal for the homeowner because he's able to get that equity. He's able to do that in a way that doesn't increase his payment. You give away some of the upsides for that but that's for not having a payment and all that. What about the people that come in and buy the fractions of that? Doesn't that put them in a barely illiquid position in a way that doesn't allow them much control if you decide to hang onto your house for 25 or 28 years?
You're right to mention that because one of the biggest challenges we came across in the early days is you're doing great things for the homeowner. You're creating an asset so remember this contract itself has a return profile. It's recorded by a lien. It is asset-backed but it's long data so you're right. What happens if the person stays in the home for 30 years? Am I going to have to wait 30 years for my money? The answer is yes, in that case. Although, how many people sign up for a 30-year mortgage and keep the same mortgage for 30 years? You don't because human nature and statistics show that most people move every seven years.
I was going to say I think I remember somewhere that it's only about seven years. By the time I was 30, I had moved about 42 times but I've learned since then.
Did they catch you in the end?
That's what I learned. If you pay the bills, they don't keep coming after you. I finally figured that out. The longer the contracts are held, the more money that is paid because your share keeps going up. It's not that you're set on a fixed rate.
What we’ll do is we’ll be very specific about what that share is when we sign the agreement. We know that if your house goes up or down, we still have that share. We’re very clear at the very beginning on how that works. It sits outside of the ownership equation. It’s protected by a lien on the title. What that means is when you sell your home, when the capital flows through escrow as a lienholder, we get paid first. That means we have a preferred equity position. We get paid before you get paid. The benefit to you is that you get a cash lump sum. There are no immediate tax implications. It’s not income. It’s not capital gains because you haven’t sold anything. You can use that money for whatever you want. It’s not debt so it doesn’t appear on your credit report as debt. You’re not robbing Peter to pay Paul. You’re selling some of your assets so that you can use that to pay down some of your debt.
The reality is then that we're fractionalizing this but how do we commemorate this? What are the instruments?
There’s the contract itself, which is an agreement. The agreement says, “In exchange for something we give you, you give something to us like a rebate.” What we’re giving you is that cash lump sum and it’s a specific amount. There are all types of underwriting that goes on behind the scenes to say, “How much are we going to give you? It’s based on what your house is worth, what your current mortgage is, to a certain extent what your credit score is,” but we only use that as a gating mechanism. Remember, you’re not taking on more debt.
There’s a lot of underwriting that goes on before we make an offer. In exchange for that lump sum, you’re going to promise us that you’re going to look after the property, that you’re not going to let it fall into disrepair. You’re going to pay your mortgage, your taxes and other things. You’ll also promise that when you sell your property, that you’ll give us back the capital together with a predetermined share. That agreement is memorialized in the contract but it is also represented by something that looks similar to a deed of trust, which is then put on the title as lien. It has language that’s very similar that says there is an agreement in place, that agreement is a performance deed of trust. In other words, the lien reflects the terms of the agreement that we have with you as the homeowner.
I think that that's a great deal for the homeowner because he's able to get that equity. He's able to do that in a way that doesn't increase his payment. You give away some of the upsides for that but that's for not having a payment and all that. What about the people that come in and buy the fractions of that? Doesn't that put them in a barely illiquid position in a way that doesn't allow them much control if you decide to hang onto your house for 25 or 28 years?
You're right to mention that because one of the biggest challenges we came across in the early days is you're doing great things for the homeowner. You're creating an asset so remember this contract itself has a return profile. It's recorded by a lien. It is asset-backed but it's long data so you're right. What happens if the person stays in the home for 30 years? Am I going to have to wait 30 years for my money? The answer is yes, in that case. Although, how many people sign up for a 30-year mortgage and keep the same mortgage for 30 years? You don't because human nature and statistics show that most people move every seven years.
I was going to say I think I remember somewhere that it's only about seven years. By the time I was 30, I had moved about 42 times but I've learned since then.
Did they catch you in the end?
That's what I learned. If you pay the bills, they don't keep coming after you. I finally figured that out. The longer the contracts are held, the more money that is paid because your share keeps going up. It's not that you're set on a fixed rate.
Blockchain would be a key technology that underpins our ability to solve problems.
— Julie Smith
That begs the next question. How do you calculate the return profile for the investor? The way that our agreements were structured, remember that we talked about options. It’s an option in exchange for this and we get that if this happens. What we get is an enhanced return. If we invest in 10% of the value of your home, we don’t get 10% of the equity increase. We’ll get 25% or 30% of the amount of increase in value. We get an enhanced or a magnified return. That reflects the difference between the value of money now and the value of money potentially in the future. There’s that future value equation. There’s something that we refer to as structural leverage.
In other words, there is no leverage in our agreements. There’s no debt but it has the same effect because it gives you more compared to the amount of equity that you have. That is one thing that makes it interesting. The investor’s eyebrows are raised. They’re intrigued and saying, “Structural leverage that good.” We also have downside protection. When we go into this equation or this relationship with you as a homeowner, even though your house may be worth $1 million now, we’re going to start the clock, taking it to a lower figure.
We’re going to apply a bit of a discount, build in a cushion so if your property does go down in value, the investor is still going to make a return. Liquidity, though, is the big issue. Even though this is a great return and I can mark my investments to market every month because all I’ve got to do is figure out how much the underlying property has gone up, then I can calculate how much more my investment’s worth. If I can’t liquidate that and there’s no cash payment, that’s not attractive.
That’s why we set about building the other part of that in our company, which is the exchange side which will very shortly allow people who have invested in these home equity agreements. We will create a marketplace where we will take that agreement and market it, chop it up into lots of little pieces and offer it for sale to other investors.
Smaller investors typically will be able to come in and buy a share of that big agreement to suit their pockets even though the main agreement might be a $500,000 deal to a homeowner that has a property in Malibu, for example. To the small investors, they can buy $1,000 worth of that agreement and still have the same financial return and still know that they’re investing in high profile Californian Coastal real estate.
If you've got one note that's $500,000 and you're going to cut that up into 500 pieces, does that make that a paperwork nightmare?
This is where our dear friend, the blockchain, comes in. We struggled with this because you’re right. If you have all of these moving pieces, how do you do that? The answer is the same way that companies have thousands of tiny notes. You keep track of that through systems. You can build systems in different ways. Blockchain came along and I remember when I was first introduced to this concept of blockchain. I look it up on the internet and it says, “A distributed ledger technology,” and you think, “That’s not interesting. They must be reading about the wrong blockchain or something.
He then wrote and said, “If we can chop these things up, we can keep track of all these different trades, we can do it very efficiently and cost-effectively and we don’t have to build these massive systems then that makes this creation of a liquidity market or marketplace much more realistic.” You can use very thin technologies that everybody trusts. A few years ago, we founded content on the basis that a blockchain would be a key technology that underpins our ability to solve that problem, which is chopping up these assets and allowing small investors to buy them. Then keep track of all of those individual trades.
You're one of the people that's not using it for money laundering and drug buying on the dark web. You're using it for a lot of the intent that blockchain was created and that is for the distribution of the information to all parties needing the information. What I hear you saying is that if I own it now and I sell it to you tomorrow, that through your exchange is going to be updated without me having to let anybody know, without you having to let anybody know. All of a sudden, everybody knows that now you own part or all of what I had.
It is exactly that but also it does it in a way that is compliant from a regulatory perspective. It does it in a way that people trust it. It does it in a way where it’s efficient and cost-effective. You don’t have to use legacy technologies. If you think about the amount of capital that it would take to build systems that were available to everyone with zero downtime, with 100% in your truth as it were or trust, blockchain does that. You’re right. From a contractual perspective and we’re talking about this term smart contract, everyone gets to know at the same time what they need to know and everybody gets to do at the same time what they need to do.
You don’t have this daisy chain effect where if a trade happens in this platform, I then have to advise another platform. That platform has to advise another platform that then advises the bank that sends the money that comes back and confirms that the transaction has happened. Meanwhile, all of that happens in a seamless contemporaneous way, which people trust, delivers the result that we want, is to be able to take an asset, chop it up, deliver that to people. That’s the important thing. It is the problem that we’re solving. How does blockchain and distributed ledger technologies make it possible when beforehand it wasn’t possible?
In other words, there is no leverage in our agreements. There’s no debt but it has the same effect because it gives you more compared to the amount of equity that you have. That is one thing that makes it interesting. The investor’s eyebrows are raised. They’re intrigued and saying, “Structural leverage that good.” We also have downside protection. When we go into this equation or this relationship with you as a homeowner, even though your house may be worth $1 million now, we’re going to start the clock, taking it to a lower figure.
We’re going to apply a bit of a discount, build in a cushion so if your property does go down in value, the investor is still going to make a return. Liquidity, though, is the big issue. Even though this is a great return and I can mark my investments to market every month because all I’ve got to do is figure out how much the underlying property has gone up, then I can calculate how much more my investment’s worth. If I can’t liquidate that and there’s no cash payment, that’s not attractive.
That’s why we set about building the other part of that in our company, which is the exchange side which will very shortly allow people who have invested in these home equity agreements. We will create a marketplace where we will take that agreement and market it, chop it up into lots of little pieces and offer it for sale to other investors.
Smaller investors typically will be able to come in and buy a share of that big agreement to suit their pockets even though the main agreement might be a $500,000 deal to a homeowner that has a property in Malibu, for example. To the small investors, they can buy $1,000 worth of that agreement and still have the same financial return and still know that they’re investing in high profile Californian Coastal real estate.
If you've got one note that's $500,000 and you're going to cut that up into 500 pieces, does that make that a paperwork nightmare?
This is where our dear friend, the blockchain, comes in. We struggled with this because you’re right. If you have all of these moving pieces, how do you do that? The answer is the same way that companies have thousands of tiny notes. You keep track of that through systems. You can build systems in different ways. Blockchain came along and I remember when I was first introduced to this concept of blockchain. I look it up on the internet and it says, “A distributed ledger technology,” and you think, “That’s not interesting. They must be reading about the wrong blockchain or something.
He then wrote and said, “If we can chop these things up, we can keep track of all these different trades, we can do it very efficiently and cost-effectively and we don’t have to build these massive systems then that makes this creation of a liquidity market or marketplace much more realistic.” You can use very thin technologies that everybody trusts. A few years ago, we founded content on the basis that a blockchain would be a key technology that underpins our ability to solve that problem, which is chopping up these assets and allowing small investors to buy them. Then keep track of all of those individual trades.
You're one of the people that's not using it for money laundering and drug buying on the dark web. You're using it for a lot of the intent that blockchain was created and that is for the distribution of the information to all parties needing the information. What I hear you saying is that if I own it now and I sell it to you tomorrow, that through your exchange is going to be updated without me having to let anybody know, without you having to let anybody know. All of a sudden, everybody knows that now you own part or all of what I had.
It is exactly that but also it does it in a way that is compliant from a regulatory perspective. It does it in a way that people trust it. It does it in a way where it’s efficient and cost-effective. You don’t have to use legacy technologies. If you think about the amount of capital that it would take to build systems that were available to everyone with zero downtime, with 100% in your truth as it were or trust, blockchain does that. You’re right. From a contractual perspective and we’re talking about this term smart contract, everyone gets to know at the same time what they need to know and everybody gets to do at the same time what they need to do.
You don’t have this daisy chain effect where if a trade happens in this platform, I then have to advise another platform. That platform has to advise another platform that then advises the bank that sends the money that comes back and confirms that the transaction has happened. Meanwhile, all of that happens in a seamless contemporaneous way, which people trust, delivers the result that we want, is to be able to take an asset, chop it up, deliver that to people. That’s the important thing. It is the problem that we’re solving. How does blockchain and distributed ledger technologies make it possible when beforehand it wasn’t possible?
Unlocking Home Equity: You don't want to know about blockchain or trading or fractionalization, you just want to know how much can you get, and what is the process from an investment perspective.
That’s the thing that a lot of people look at and this is what crashed the market in ’08. It was the lack of transparency when the loan was done. What you’re saying is that you’re figuring out a way to bring transparency to the equity situation to allow everyone to see what they need to see. You can’t necessarily see what I have but you can see that the trade happened. Being able to compete for that, make that settlement, make that transaction, it’s a beautiful thing. How is it that you’re attracting people to the platform to be involved with that? I’m assuming that you’re bringing people to the platform that say, “Matthew, I have $100,000 I’d like to invest or $50,000 I’d like to invest. How can I be involved?" You are doing that whole process that then allows that to be part of that? How are you attracting your customers? How can people get involved with that?
The first thing is if there are two sides to the equation. First of all, we have to make sure that we’ve got sufficient inventory. This is what we’ve been working on for a few years. Being able to originate the deals. Our website speaks effectively two different languages. From a homeowner’s perspective, it’s a very straightforward process where you can do what you want to do, which is to access some of the equity on your own. You don’t want to know about blockchain or trading or fractionalization. You only want to know how much can you get and what the process is.
From the investment perspective, we’re finding a lot of interest even though we are a few weeks away from launching, even though we are very active on the origination side. On the trading side, we’ve been waiting for the blockchain technologies to catch up with the regulatory requirements because we aren’t dealing in the security environment.
It’s interesting because blockchain gives us that sizzle. There are people who are interested to see how we are marrying blockchain with a real-life use case, which is accessing home equity. We are using blockchain to enable something to happen that couldn’t happen before, which helps people and solves the problem. That in itself is interesting. Also, the return profile of the assets themselves is compelling because of your buy-in to the future appreciation of some pretty classy properties that are not for sale.
The platform will allow you to become a real estate investor where you can pick and choose your own specific investments right down to the individual properties. You’ll be able to trade out. Not only can you buy in, again, subject to all the regulatory approvals, which we’re certain we’ll be able to get but you’ll also be able to sell your interest back into the marketplace and trade out then move in. That creates this concept or this idea of creating the liquidity into something that is static and concentrated and illiquid.
That’s the amazing thing about being an entrepreneur because you begin to look at problems from a different angle. When you say blockchain technology, everybody immediately thinks of cryptocurrency but here you’ve taken an entrepreneurial approach and you said, “Let’s look at the technology underneath it. Let’s look at how this functions and let’s look at a different way to solve a different problem.” In that, you’ve come up with an ingenious way to do that. Where do you think this platform of yours is going to go over the next 3 to 5 years?
To answer that question is, does it solve a problem? I think the answer is a resounding yes. That problem is going to get worse. The problem is how do you access home equity without taking on more debt? There's more home equity. It's harder to borrow money. It's a multi-trillion-dollar asset class. It has all of the ingredients to have legs, in other words. That in itself is a good thing. That is going to help us. That is going to help our platform solve problems for lots of people. If we were there and it was an interesting technical use of the blockchain technology, that doesn't butter any parsnips, as we say.
If we're solving a major problem for lots of people and, at the same time, opening up an asset class where people can invest where they couldn't before, then that is likely to enable us to grow the platform. From all indications, the timing is right for this. Timing is also very important. From our perspective, house prices are very high. They're likely to continue to grow. People have an appetite to invest in real estate. People need to access capital so there are three main pillars that are likely to support the business, I think, for the foreseeable future.
The first thing is if there are two sides to the equation. First of all, we have to make sure that we’ve got sufficient inventory. This is what we’ve been working on for a few years. Being able to originate the deals. Our website speaks effectively two different languages. From a homeowner’s perspective, it’s a very straightforward process where you can do what you want to do, which is to access some of the equity on your own. You don’t want to know about blockchain or trading or fractionalization. You only want to know how much can you get and what the process is.
From the investment perspective, we’re finding a lot of interest even though we are a few weeks away from launching, even though we are very active on the origination side. On the trading side, we’ve been waiting for the blockchain technologies to catch up with the regulatory requirements because we aren’t dealing in the security environment.
It’s interesting because blockchain gives us that sizzle. There are people who are interested to see how we are marrying blockchain with a real-life use case, which is accessing home equity. We are using blockchain to enable something to happen that couldn’t happen before, which helps people and solves the problem. That in itself is interesting. Also, the return profile of the assets themselves is compelling because of your buy-in to the future appreciation of some pretty classy properties that are not for sale.
The platform will allow you to become a real estate investor where you can pick and choose your own specific investments right down to the individual properties. You’ll be able to trade out. Not only can you buy in, again, subject to all the regulatory approvals, which we’re certain we’ll be able to get but you’ll also be able to sell your interest back into the marketplace and trade out then move in. That creates this concept or this idea of creating the liquidity into something that is static and concentrated and illiquid.
That’s the amazing thing about being an entrepreneur because you begin to look at problems from a different angle. When you say blockchain technology, everybody immediately thinks of cryptocurrency but here you’ve taken an entrepreneurial approach and you said, “Let’s look at the technology underneath it. Let’s look at how this functions and let’s look at a different way to solve a different problem.” In that, you’ve come up with an ingenious way to do that. Where do you think this platform of yours is going to go over the next 3 to 5 years?
To answer that question is, does it solve a problem? I think the answer is a resounding yes. That problem is going to get worse. The problem is how do you access home equity without taking on more debt? There's more home equity. It's harder to borrow money. It's a multi-trillion-dollar asset class. It has all of the ingredients to have legs, in other words. That in itself is a good thing. That is going to help us. That is going to help our platform solve problems for lots of people. If we were there and it was an interesting technical use of the blockchain technology, that doesn't butter any parsnips, as we say.
If we're solving a major problem for lots of people and, at the same time, opening up an asset class where people can invest where they couldn't before, then that is likely to enable us to grow the platform. From all indications, the timing is right for this. Timing is also very important. From our perspective, house prices are very high. They're likely to continue to grow. People have an appetite to invest in real estate. People need to access capital so there are three main pillars that are likely to support the business, I think, for the foreseeable future.
We are using blockchain to enable something to happen that couldn't happen before, which actually helps people and solves the problem.
— Julie Smith
That’s the funny thing when you look at the disruptive technology that’s happening that is becoming the new wave of how things are being done. I can see how this becomes the new funding mechanism for not being the equity portion but the debt portion as well. Now, all you’ve done is fractionalized the home. When I look at what’s happening, the average home price in our area has gone from $200,000 to $400,000 now. That’s not a travesty.
The travesty is the homeowner that’s trying to move into there for the first time is trying to do that with a 3% down. They went from needing to come up with $6,000 to need to come up with $12,000, which they live in that world that they are now trying to come up with $12,000 with $4.50 gas and all the other things that else that are going on. At the end of the day, the dream of homeownership became harder. This technology gives you the opportunity to look at it and go, “This could make it easier.” Collectively, we can become homeowners.
Also, yes but what it does is the person that had the $6,000, whilst they’re building that up, they could theoretically invest in houses in that area and participate in that appreciation. There are lots of caveats.
A couple of guys like us, we could sit down and could go through all the different wormholes that we could come up with that would be a twist on the business. Matthew, I think you've got something here that's amazing and to think that it's unconventional or something that wasn't an option years ago. It wasn't something that would have been viable. It is truly amazing.
The important thing is that it’s not something we invented in terms of the home equity agreement. That’s a good thing. There are lots of other people who do. When I say lots, it’s about 5 or 6 other companies that are offering home equity agreements. There are about $1 billion a year now, we think, is being invested into home equity agreements. It is great not to be on the bleeding edge. It’s great to have that track record that other people bring
because education’s a big challenge.
It’s fantastic having these great ideas but try to explain to people what the hell you’re talking about. It’s becoming easier now. I enjoy the business because it has all those things that feed the entrepreneur’s mind, the creativity, the technology and being able to see it, getting some traction as well as is great fun to watch but thank you. You are very kind to say that.
Matthew, you've got something there and it will be great to watch over the next several years as this begins to grow and to bloom. I want to thank you for being with us, Matthew. Thank you, guys, for reading the Real Estate Rundown. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe to the Real Estate Rundown on Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts to get automatic updates. You'll also find us on Instagram. Leave a review. We'd love to hear from you but more importantly than that, I'd like to get you guys to go find Matthew where he's at on the world wide web.
You can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. You could also listen to his show Hooked on Startups, which is amazing because it's got me on it. You can also check out his website and find out more about this technology and this opportunity for you to harvest the equity in your home in a very easy way by going to his website, which is www.QuantmRE.com. You're going to love it. Matthew, I truly do appreciate you stopping by and letting us have an insight into this beautiful, amazing concept and company you've built.
Shannon, thank you. The pleasure is mine. Thank you for having me on.
See you next time. Thanks.
The travesty is the homeowner that’s trying to move into there for the first time is trying to do that with a 3% down. They went from needing to come up with $6,000 to need to come up with $12,000, which they live in that world that they are now trying to come up with $12,000 with $4.50 gas and all the other things that else that are going on. At the end of the day, the dream of homeownership became harder. This technology gives you the opportunity to look at it and go, “This could make it easier.” Collectively, we can become homeowners.
Also, yes but what it does is the person that had the $6,000, whilst they’re building that up, they could theoretically invest in houses in that area and participate in that appreciation. There are lots of caveats.
A couple of guys like us, we could sit down and could go through all the different wormholes that we could come up with that would be a twist on the business. Matthew, I think you've got something here that's amazing and to think that it's unconventional or something that wasn't an option years ago. It wasn't something that would have been viable. It is truly amazing.
The important thing is that it’s not something we invented in terms of the home equity agreement. That’s a good thing. There are lots of other people who do. When I say lots, it’s about 5 or 6 other companies that are offering home equity agreements. There are about $1 billion a year now, we think, is being invested into home equity agreements. It is great not to be on the bleeding edge. It’s great to have that track record that other people bring
because education’s a big challenge.
It’s fantastic having these great ideas but try to explain to people what the hell you’re talking about. It’s becoming easier now. I enjoy the business because it has all those things that feed the entrepreneur’s mind, the creativity, the technology and being able to see it, getting some traction as well as is great fun to watch but thank you. You are very kind to say that.
Matthew, you've got something there and it will be great to watch over the next several years as this begins to grow and to bloom. I want to thank you for being with us, Matthew. Thank you, guys, for reading the Real Estate Rundown. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe to the Real Estate Rundown on Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts to get automatic updates. You'll also find us on Instagram. Leave a review. We'd love to hear from you but more importantly than that, I'd like to get you guys to go find Matthew where he's at on the world wide web.
You can find him on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. You could also listen to his show Hooked on Startups, which is amazing because it's got me on it. You can also check out his website and find out more about this technology and this opportunity for you to harvest the equity in your home in a very easy way by going to his website, which is www.QuantmRE.com. You're going to love it. Matthew, I truly do appreciate you stopping by and letting us have an insight into this beautiful, amazing concept and company you've built.
Shannon, thank you. The pleasure is mine. Thank you for having me on.
See you next time. Thanks.
Important Links:
- www.LinkedIn.com/company/quantm-one
- www.Facebook.com/Quantm.one
- http://www.Crowdventure.com/
- Matthew Sullivan
- Hooked on Startups
- Spotify – Real Estate Rundown
- YouTube – Shannon Robnett
- Instagram – Shannon Robnett
- LinkedIn – Matthew Sullivan
- Twitter – Matthew Sullivan
- Instagram – Matthew Sullivan
About Matthew Sullivan
Matthew Sullivan is the CEO and Founder of QuantmRE, a company that solves a real problem for homeowners by helping them access a portion of their home equity without taking on more debt. This new financing tool is not a HELOC, it's not a loan and it's not a reverse mortgage. That means homeowners can get cash from their equity with no interest and no monthly payments. Matthew and his team have helped over a hundred homeowners use their home equity to pay off expensive credit cards, remodel their home, pay college tuition fees or to diversify into other investments, all without taking on extra debt. Matthew has a proven track record in real estate innovation through his experiences as Co-Founder of the Secured Real Estate Income Strategies Fund, and as President and Founder of Crowdventure.com, a real estate crowdfunding company.
Originally from London, Matthew worked with Richard Branson's corporate finance team and was a director of the Virgin-sponsored London Air Ambulance. A helicopter pilot himself, he is also the host of his own podcast, “Hooked on Startups.”
Originally from London, Matthew worked with Richard Branson's corporate finance team and was a director of the Virgin-sponsored London Air Ambulance. A helicopter pilot himself, he is also the host of his own podcast, “Hooked on Startups.”